The New House by Tess Stimson

Close to 30% of us have some level of psychopathic traits (according to the APA). In this story we have 3 of them. One of them is a child who is a murderer. We will chat about the book and listen to Emily share a real life True Crime story with us about Daniel Marsh.  

TW: Podcast includes brief discussions about domestic violence and animal abuse. 

If you are someone you know needs help please click here: www.thehotline.org

Erin Moriarty Article an CBS special: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/daniel-marsh-double-murder-could-new-california-law-free-a-teen-killer-convicted-as-an-adult/

https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-new-house-tess-stimson?variant=40087076438050

https://www.tessstimson.com

https://www.apa.org



Show Notes:

0:00-2:00 Intro and TW
2:48 Ashley and her husband have a "deal" on a house
4:00 Who wants what house 
6:30 Millies obsession with breaking into homes 
9:00 How does psychopathy scoring work?
11:00 Discussion of some violence and animal abuse (TW) 
15:00 How did Felix end up chained up in the basement?
18:30 Emily's discussion of Daniel Marsh True Crime case
26:00-29:00 Discussion around kids and resilience and grit 
32:00 Safety/risk and our friend Heather
35:00 Outro - join us on patreon 

Transcript

Hi, I'm Emily. I'm Ashley, and this is books with your besties. Please make sure to look up the trigger warnings for this book before listening to the episode. There will be discussion of domestic violence. We are here to talk about the new house. Let's talk about the new house by Tess Stimpson. 

This is one of the books, and I want us to do some sort of a series that is, at least for me. Five out of five stars. And I really don't think enough people have read this book, nor even heard about this book. I loved this book. I had seen a few posts or heard a few things online of people being like, whoa, this is an incredible book, but it's not. It's not a common like, mainstream book. No. 

And I'm trying to decide, do I get credit? I think you get credit. I think you read this first and told me you have to read this book. I think so too, because I saved it. I just I saw some review of it and I was like, that's it. I'm buying it immediately, and I did. I think I read it in two sittings because it's just twist after twist after twist after twist. It's five, five out of five stars. Yeah, it's kind of a slow burn start, right? Like it just starts a little bit with building who these people are. Yes. Let's get into that. I'll tell you. I have some notes written down because you know me. 

You and I read a lot of books. So sometimes when we come back to talk about books, I have to have notes. So I have some notes written down. And first I have the character. So I have Millie. And in parentheses I have that she's a runner, maybe a little bit crazy, and that she's a breaker in her because she likes to break into people's houses. Yes. Well, and we find out pretty early on she's pretty unique. Yes. The other few, let's just go through who people are. So if you also haven't read it in a while, you're reminded Tom's her husband. He's just kind of her husband. She has a daughter named Medusa. Interesting choice. 

Trying not to judge son Peter, who Millie literally calls the weak link of their family, Kyle and Harper. They have a blog. Stacy, who is the celebrity homeowner who's a news anchor, and Felix, who is Stacey's husband, and their son Archie. Those are kind of the main players, right? Love it. So it's three families. Three families kind of doing a unintentional house swap. Yes. So one of the couples puts their house on the market, which then spurs another couple to be like, I have to buy this house, I want it. So they're going to put their house on the market, which then the third couple wants. Correct. Yes. 

Let me just interject and tell you a funny story about this, because you already know this, but this is my husband. So it turns out that Millie has had her eye on this glass house. It's called the glass House. And she and Tom, when they got married, made this rule, the five house rule, that each of them got five houses. And if any of those houses were to come for sale, they will buy that house. You cannot say no. So as soon as Millie sees that the glass houses for sale, she's like, sorry, Tom, we're getting this house. I have this with my husband. There is one house on one street that is, he already says his house. He has written a letter to the owners that says, if you're going to sell your house, please let us know first so we can make an offer. Unfortunately, it's a house we could never afford. That's the problem with this whole thing. I'm like, Steve, we have to buy this house. Sure, it's $4 million out of budget, right? But in the book, that's interesting because the house comes for sale and Millie's like, hey, we had a deal. And Tom, literally in the book says, Millie is my obsession. So he is just a hard yes to whatever she wants. Because Millie is Tom's drug. Yeah, I love that. I know, so then Millie and Tom have to sell their house, and that's where Kyle and Harper, the bloggers, come into the picture because they're going to buy Millie and Tom's house. Yeah. So the glass house was Stacy and Felix's to start? Yep. And Kyle and Harper want to buy Millie and Tom's house. We can get into more of that later, but they aren't the kind of influencers like we see today. They were more the old school vloggers like daily really long form live our life with us. 

So initially, Millie felt really uncomfortable because Harper was showing the inside of her home because they were so intent on buying the home that Harper got completely obsessed with it. I feel like there still are those. Like, I follow some people I love, the people who do day in the life and they give snippets and they might be three minutes long, so they've just shortened down or condensed some of it. But you still see a lot of things, like insight into the way they make their breakfast and stuff. It's I don't know why it's fun watching other people do boring, mundane things, but it's just interesting to see how other people live. 

So I don't know, those influencers maybe aren't on YouTube as the long form as much, but I think they're still out there. Yeah, and I like watching them too. Can we get into a little bit about Milly? Because Milly is someone who likes to break into people's houses. She doesn't hurt anyone. She doesn't take anything that the owners might notice, but she always takes a trinket. If you knew you weren't going to get caught, would you want to go inside someone else's house? If it was 100% for sure that I couldn't get caught, I would love to go in lots of houses and look at everything we do. I just want to see how people live. I want to see their decor. How is the house laid out? 

Even my own friends. I had a friend over last week and I had to get something upstairs and I was like, come with me. And she came upstairs and she goes, I've never been in your bedroom before. And I was like, yeah, because we all live downstairs at one another's houses, right? Because it's also my bedroom is the place where real life is happening. Like there's clothes on the floor for my husband. I just let anything go in there. Downstairs. It looks like nice, like I've got my act together. I can't take them to see that. Would you take a trinket? That's a question I don't think I would. And the things she takes, like she just took a pair of dice or die, however you say, when there's more than one and brought them home. And she hands them to Tom, and Tom puts them in her little trinket drawer. So Tom knows she's been out. 

She's been going into houses. She's doing it again. There's no way I would steal a trinket from anyone. I don't want anyone's little crap. Are you kidding me? A trinket drawer? I'm trying to throw that crap away. Every time I'm in my house, I'm like, what is this? You got this from a birthday party? This is gone. I said, where's my science experiment that I'm working on right now? I'm like, it's in the garbage. Oh, it was moldy. Yes, mom, I'm growing mold. Sorry, but, you know, you do wonder about Millie and the piece of it is that the thrill of breaking in and not getting caught? Is it? Because for her, it's a it's a need. It's something that she's trying to fulfill within herself. And you wonder what the end goal is there. Well, I think we know. Right? 

Because she's a psychopath. Yes. And in the book it said 1 in 1000 people are psychopaths. But there's a spectrum of what that looks like. Yes, yes, we can talk about the spectrum. You are kind of a light psychopath. No, I'm just kidding. You're not. You're not. You're low on it. You have too much empathy. Sometimes you're like, I apologize. You texted me. I apologize if that was insensitive of me to say that Rosie's shirt was probably getting too small. I'm like, what are you talking about? What are you apologizing for? Friendship, abandonment issues, not psychopathy to far the wrong direction of feelings. Too many of them. 

Tell me a little bit about that because you know about these things. Okay, I will, but I'm going to also put a pin in it and come back to it because I have something to talk about later about this book. But I don't want to, you know, I don't want to charge ahead and ruin our conversation. Okay. But the most widely used metric for psychopathy, and I think we talked about this even in the behind closed doors episode. But is Hare's psychopathy checklist PCL are it's a checklist of items where you score them. Do they not have it at all? Do they have it somewhat or do they have it a lot. And it goes up to 40 points. And it's all kinds of items about both behavior and personality, a lot of personality. So lacking empathy or being manipulative or lying chronically or. Being sexually promiscuous, all kinds of things like that charm and glib, superficial kind of stuff. So it puts those characteristics all together into a checklist. And the high point is 40. That's the highest score you can get. You can get a score of zero. Most people who don't have psychopathy score way less than 20. They're scoring low. Right. So I've actually had my students try to self rape before for fun in class and they'll be like I got 12. I'm like, great, that sounds perfect. You know? Whatever. I'm sure some of them leave. They're like, I'm a little scared of myself. But we're harsh critics on ourselves, which is why we don't use these on ourselves. 

And we have somebody who actually is licensed, clinically licensed and trained to do this like a forensic psychologist, but it's a spectrum. So you could have be a little bit higher on there. And maybe you have some of the characteristics of what we might end up calling a psychopath. And but there's other there's other clinical traits that you can't just get, you can't just have. But there's a spectrum. And I'll come back and I'll tell you an example later. Okay. So one of the things in the new house I loved was that throughout the book is scattered a transcript. And you're actually not sure if it's from like a special or a book, but it's a transcript of someone telling a story and it's called Inside the Mind of a psychopath. Yeah. And it's like a riff on a Ted talk. I forget what they call it, but it's like a Ted talk and you don't know who is telling it. You don't know who is telling this story about being a psychopath and murdering people. We totally think it's the main character because she's clearly. I mean, she says she's a psychopath.

 Yes, she knows she she tests as a psychopath. It explains the trinket stealing and the breaking into homes, the risky kind of behavior, and not worrying about if they care about losing that trinket. So, of course, we assume it's her, but it's not. It's the son. It is. So let's get into that. Because in the beginning of the book, Millie talks about not wanting to have children and then decide that it is basically her greatest challenge to have a child because she's afraid that he's going to inherit these traits from her. And Peter, who is her son, starts to show signs pretty early. And then the biggest sign being when he pushes his sister out of a window. Oh my gosh, I know. Well. And then. And then he tries to drown a child, right? He so he pushes his sister out of the two storey window. Tom is like, no, I think it just happened. I think it was an accident. And Millie knows because of her own issues. And Millie reminds him he put a bunny rabbit in the dishwasher. Oh my. He put this in the microwave. But those were when he was really little and had reasons like I was just trying to get the bunny clean. I was just trying to warm the tortoise up to hibernate. But Millie's, like all of these things are adding up to you are a very scary child for sure. Yeah. Yikes. So pushes his sister out the window. Thank goodness she ends up being okay, but that was the first time I think that Tom had his eyes open to okay, maybe there is something here with Peter. Okay. And so then when does the pool scene happen? Remind me. 

So Stacy and Felix are the couple that own the glass house. I'm going to back up a little bit, Stacy claims, and it seems like there is evidence on her body that Felix is abusive towards her. She has a right. That's right. She gets a black eye. Felix claims she just really likes rough intercourse and that these injuries happen that way. So there really is this. Like, Tom kind of believes Felix. Millie is definitely abusing Stacy. I have seen it like I have seen these instances happen. So there at the pool, Milly breaks Felix's finger. She folds it back so far that his finger is broken because he's just being the way he is, and she firmly believes that he is abusing Stacy while she's distracted. Wait wait wait, can we pause? Because could you break someone's finger like, that's just not in my genes? Like, not gonna happen. Like, it definitely shows the power of being a psychopath in a way where you're not being directly threatened. This is not self-defense. This is not. She has just decided. And it comes out later, too, with Peter, that he hurts people basically because he has the power to hurt them. So this is an exact example of her doing the same thing. But while she's temporarily distracted, Peter pushes Archie's head under the water and tries to drown him. Oh my gosh, that is so crazy. Yeah, I know, it's absolutely terrible. And that was the. That was when Tom really realized we have a serious issue with our kiddo. Okay?

 We just have to go all the way. Fast forward like, look. It's fun. To think about the houses. I still think we can talk more about the influencer thing and some of the stuff we've seen, or talk about that a little bit with the Vlog Daily bloggers. I want to come back to that, but I also just want to be like, it took a very dark turn after that, right? I mean, that's when the Felix in the basement, it took a so let's just go there, Felix first. Stacy has Peter in the car and they they run over Harper. They hit Harper with their car because Harper has given money to Felix. Felix's companies going under so they can get rid of Harper. They can probably keep her money. Felix is then in the basement of Stacy's house. So Felix goes, quote unquote, missing after his company goes bankrupt. So the cops even show up at Stacy's house, and they're like, you haven't talked to your husband for two weeks. And she says, no, we had a disagreement. Basically, he went bankrupt. Haven't heard from him. And he's in the basement chained to a metal button. And can you remind me Stacy's involved in this? Absolutely. 

So, seems it was Felix's idea. Felix's. Yeah, because if he can go missing for a while, maybe they can figure out how he's not going to end up basically in jail for taking people's money because his company has gone under. So she claims he wanted to be chained up in the basement. Yes, that it was his idea, but really, she chains him up and she's a psychopath, too. Absolutely. And then how does the son get involved? Stacey locks him up. Peter and Stacey have become buddies because she sees him. She sees the psychopath in him. Yep. So he's just at her house because he. He shows up there and he then discovers Felix. So you think Felix dies because of starvation? Because he's been locked to this bed for what turns out to be 35 days? No. Stacey gives him something to drink because he claims he's super thirsty. And it's not cold coffee. Like she says, it's drain cleaner. So he dies from drinking. Drained. Not Stacey. Right? But you think it's her? And then at the very end of the book, Milly sees her son doing, like, taking a coke can, pouring it in something and crushing it. And that's when she realizes he killed the Felix. He put the drain cleaner in the cup. 

Yeah. He's sick. He's really, really sick and messed up. And then the Ted talk is him. And they're trying to figure out how to manage him being a psychopath. Right. So Felix is down there and obviously he's missing, so they're trying to find him. The cops assume that Millie is the one because she has his blood on her shoes. And she. All of these things, they think it's Millie. She's like, it's definitely not me. Nobody will believe her. She figures out I need to go over to the house because Stacy tells her Peter is here. So she's at work. She's like, Peter's here. She says, I'm coming. She goes, goes down to the cellar where they are to find them. And that's when Stacy hits her with something in the back of their head and chains her up. See, when you say these things out loud, you're like, why do we read these books? No, I know, why do we read these books? This was a dark one. Change her up and Peter is in the freezer and she gives her a knife and she has to decide, do I cut off my own hands to try to get out and save my son? Like, what do I do in this situation? Felix is on the bed. Peter's in the freezer, Millie is chained up, and Millie knows enough from being a surgeon that she cuts off her own hand. Oh, my. I think I blocked out some of that. I'm just here to retell everybody the story because I still cannot believe. I still can't believe it. I think I had trauma from this book, maybe. And I had to I had to take a little mental break from remembering it. But so then remember the biggest, the hugest thing in the end. So Millie gets Peter out of the freezer, saves her son like, goes to great lengths to save Harper, who seems to be the legend. I shouldn't use the word ditzy, but like, you know, ditzy vlogger. She's just like, I'm here to save you, I found you. Well, no, because Peter's crazy. Peter pushes both Harper and Stacy down the stairs, and they both die at the bottom of the stairs because he kills them. So in the end, Peter kills the three of them, gets away with it, but then four years later comes back and slices his dad's throat. That's right. He kills his daddy. That is some sick shit. It is. And unfortunately, there are some stories that mean stuff like this happens. Like, you say it out loud and you read this book and you think that could never happen? It does. Okay, here's the thing. This book haunts me and here's why. I for many years was perpetually haunted by a true crime case. You know this. I've talked about this. You know how sometimes there's just a case that gets you and you cannot let it go in 2013. So it's been 11 years since the murders of Chip Northup. Chip was. His nickname was Oliver Northup. Chip. He was 87 years old. And Claudia maupin, who was 76 years old, in Davis, California. So that's where I grew up. That's part of why it hit close to home. My mom and dad both still live there at this time. It's a really sleepy, lovely little college town. Or it was. And this was really, really terrifying. But it also just scared me because of how closely related it is to this story in some ways. So the murders were committed while they were sleeping in their home, in their beds. A kid, a 15 year old boy cut a screen and went in and stabbed them. In a combined way, I think 128 times. Oh my God. And eviscerated their bodies in other ways, right? Like eviscerated their bodies. Put a cell phone inside a body, a drinking glass inside a body. I mean, really disgusting, gory details. And this is all according to Erin Moriarty of CBS news, because they did a great 48 hours segment on him years later because of some new laws that came forward in California. So I highly recommend you watch the 48 hours. We will link the article by Erin Moriarty or the transcript, a link to where you can find out about the 48 hours online. And this is the thing is, this kid is the epitome of a psychopath. Doctor Matthew Logan assessed him using her psychopathy checklist that we just talked about, and he got a 35.8 out of 40. That is the highest score that Doctor Logan as a forensic psychologist had ever seen. Oh my gosh. And it's about a highest score that I've ever heard of for anybody. He was completely remorseless. In fact, he told a friend that he felt amazing during and after the murders. It was the best thing he'd ever done. And he walked the streets of Davis with a baseball bat looking for another victim, but didn't come up with one in the weeks following that murder. 

So this was a little serial killer who got caught. The way he got caught is he told a friend about the murders, bragged to a friend that friend was absolutely terrified and said nothing. And he showed him the bloody clothing. The friend was terrified and said nothing for a long time because he was so afraid. But within the two months after the murder, he came forward and said, I know everything and I have to tell. That's the way he got caught. So he didn't get caught immediately. He was still out for two months. Do you know from any of your research or anything else how he picked his victims, or was it just random? Totally random? That's even scarier. I'm sorry. Totally random. No relationship, just in target because they had a window open on the ground floor. That's what haunted me is that this is a 15 year old child. There are teenagers everywhere. And what if one of them is like this? They will just come into your home and kill you and so brutally brutalize you and love it? So it just really scares me, knowing how many people are psychopaths that they are in our general population. 

And what if one is dangerous in some way? But here's the real kicker. Here's the real kicker of why it really reminded me of the book. This kid, Daniel Marsh, the 15 year old. Years later, did a Ted talk about how he's reformed and shouldn't have this keep him behind bars for his life. You cannot reform a psychopath. This is the thing is, it is general knowledge, or generally thought by the clinical psychology community that a personality disorder like antisocial personality disorder, which is psychopathy or those kinds of things, it's not curable. You may be able to treat behaviors or teach how to experience things that others are experiencing. But you cannot fix this. So this kid is so charming and so narcissistic, which are both components of psychopathy, that he thinks he can swindle the public by believing him in a Ted talk, just like the book. That's exactly like the book. That's exactly like the book. And in the book, he's ten when he first murders Stacy Harper and Felix and then Emily, he's 14 when he kills his dad. Yep. So same age, and he's telling this same story about how he's going in front of a board to prove to them that he's been rehabilitated and he's ready to be back in a part of society. And his mom then asks the question to us readers, if you knew this is what your child was going to turn out to be, what would you do? And it's this open ended. If you knew your child was going to be a serial killer, and there was not really anything you could do to stop it, what would you do? Which is not a question we can answer. No, but I do think I mean, I don't think anyone can confidently, truly say they would kill their kid. Absolutely not. But I do think that I could kind of lock my kid up in a way, like house arrest my kid, then they're gonna just kill you. I know that's the thing. You know, I've heard I've heard from people in my life like people I know before. And sometimes this is because I interact with a lot of people also at work. Right? So I just talked with a lot of people. 

And because I teach psychology and law topics, people tell me all kinds of things, but I know people who have family members that their family was so terrified of them, they locked their doors at night inside the home. Yeah. That's terrifying. I just can't imagine living with someone that you feel so confidently is so dangerous. There used to be those segments on. Did you ever watch Maury Povich growing up, or those talks or those segments where moms would come on and they'd be like, I'm afraid of my kid, and I'm laughing because it tended not to be kids that had real needs. It tend to be kids like Durham, where I'm like, I'm kind of afraid of you. Never leave me alone. But actually, that brings up just an interesting other piece that happened in the book that we haven't talked about and we have to talk about, which is the fact that Milly also killed her dad. Milly's dad was extraordinarily abusive towards the mom. She came in one day when he was trying to drown her mom in the sink, and she hit him with something, and he didn't immediately die, but she knew they would assume he did. So she smothered him with a pillow. And that's the whole thing. I know you have studied this and we've talked about it where it's self-defense, she says. It had been ten years of watching this abuse, so she decided he needed to be gone. I just think that's quite fundamentally different in some ways. I agree, absolutely agree. She had watched him abuse her mom for ten years. He had abused her and he was mad at her in the book for doing better than him in all ways. And she actually said when she got into medical school, she was afraid to tell him because she thought he would kill her, because he was so jealous of the life she had made for herself. But I think you can't compare that to the way Peter murdered those people. Joi killed some innocent people. Yeah, as a ten year old. Ten, ten year old, it's super sick. But I do think we see those signs early. 

And what do you do? Right? Right. A lot of parents don't see the signs. We were just talking about this the other day. You and I. I really think it's important to make your kid, like, a good part of society, right? Like to help them grow into a good, well-rounded person. And in order to do that, you have to recognize that they have limitations and are not perfect. Yes, because they're humans, like we all have limitations. And so I want to correct help, correct things in my children that won't serve them or won't serve the people around them long term. I want to work on those things. I think there's a number of parents out there who are much more like my kids great, my kids the best, and everybody else is wrong around them. 100%. And it's problematic. It is problematic. Ben and I are always looking for ways to have hard conversations with our kids, because we remind one another that we're raising future life partners, future hopeful college roommates, future members of society that, yeah, their kids right now they're going to make mistakes. And it's our job to look at the mistakes as tools to help them, not make them again or be like, is this not a mistake? Is this a character, something that we need to address? Otherwise you're just not setting them up for success as adults? Well, yeah. And if you teach them now, they don't have to take accountability for their actions, even if it's hard for you to really see it, that they played an integral role in whatever this issue was or this problem. If you if they can't take accountability now, they are never going to be able to later. They're never going to learn that skill and they're going to think making mistakes is really bad, or doing things that are wrong is really bad, and you want to teach them that everyone does them. It's okay. You can just say you're sorry and try to remedy it and learn from it and move along. I hadn't heard this term until recently. Lawnmower parents, you know, we've heard of helicopter that like hover over your kids, but lawn mower where it's like these parents are literally moving obstacles so their kids don't have to deal with them. They're getting everything out of the way so they don't have to deal with anything. So they just have this nice, clean little path to get through life, which then sets them up for complete failure as adults. Totally. So this is a conversation I've been having recently. So the American Psychological Association, some people have been speaking out that they think that social emotional learning that's been going on is actually been a little bit problematic. It's reduced grit or resiliency in now young adults than children. And so that there needs to be some modifications to the way that we talk about that. And it makes sense, right. Because the kids that we see growing up now, it's like, how do you feel? Tell me about your feelings. How do you process this rather than being like, how did this impact everybody? Yeah, and we had parents. I know I had parents, and I think you had parents that were just more like, okay, sorry for you. Suck it up. Yes. One I mean, come on. Like that was the generation. And I definitely feel like there were some real benefits to that. Not that I'm suggesting that parents do that right. I'm not giving any parenting advice, but it's an interesting part of conversation. Just the way that we treat our kids now. Are we just coddling them too much? And part of that is not making them be accountable, not recognizing that they're they have flaws and then missing the big ones when they show up. Yeah. Ben and I talked about this the other day, that we don't want our kids to suffer in any of the ways that we, quote unquote, suffered, but we do need them to build that grit and that resiliency. And they don't have that many opportunities to now because there are so many paths. When we were growing up, there was like one soccer team. If you made it, you made it. If you didn't go find something else. Now it's like there's teams A through K, everybody makes one. So not saying every kid doesn't deserve to play a sport, have a spot on a team, but also kids have to experience failure to learn how to move forward. And a lot of kids are one example. This is going to make me sound like back in my day, but last year my son got my oldest son and he'd be fine with me telling me this got like an 85% in a science class. Okay, did you hear that number? 85% when we're in school, what grade is that be? In his school was an A. So he brought his report card home. And Ben goes, that's not a that's not an A in our house. He was like that. That's a B. But just exactly what you're saying that it's there has been maybe too much of a shift towards making sure kids feelings aren't hurt and away from building that muscle to, like, experience some disappointments in life. I agree, although I do disagree about the soccer thing because there should be every kid should be able to play sports. Yes, there should be accessibility for all kids somewhere because that's a really positive thing for kids. And if you just went back in the day, the kids who didn't make the sports teams were smoking cigarettes over on the parking lot, better to give them a sports play. They're just not on the A-Team. It was a horrible example, I agree. I'm just saying if we want to get into it, we can argue about this. Let's go. Ashley. No, because before we're done talking about this book, we didn't talk about Kyle and Harper enough. And I do want to talk about it because Harper is. So they're influencers. They make their money from being influencers. But she like one of us on this podcast whose name does not start with an E, but maybe starts with an A, is a tad impulsive. So she will use her social media in ways that you're like, Harper, don't do that. Like she went live and just said it was Peter and Stacy in the car who hit me before even thinking about the consequences of just putting that out to the world before anybody else discovered it. We need to have Heather on here. We do need to app Heather on about safety and risk. We have a friend, Heather, who we're going to have as a guest on here. Who? This is like her thing. She gets very upset with people like Ashley because Ashley, somebody else I know, maybe, whose name starts with an A, is impulsive and use of social media in ways that I'm like, why are you posting your location? Don't post that. You're in a restaurant on vacation in a specific city. What are you doing? So you've gotten better. I have gotten better because it's just not safe or smart. And yeah, and because Heather called me out on it a million times when we were together. But Harper is really the same. I found her character very likable and very funny and sweet, and she just wants this house. Like, she just really wants Tom and Emily's house, and she's kind of willing to do whatever to get it. And she just really wants to be a helper. She is sweet and totally innocent. And the reality is the path of influencer lifestyle. This is a very valid and important way for people to make a living now, because things have changed, our economy has changed, what we attend to has changed. And so there are going to be people who are influencers. And so much of the hate I think influencers get is about jealousy, but also about influencers maybe being a little bit sometimes forgetting what they're forgetting. They're not Jenny from the block. They forget where they came from. Okay. Privilege. Oh, gosh. Okay. Is there anything else about this book other than that we recommend? Everybody should read it. It's five out of five stars if you haven't read it. Sorry, we just spoil the whole thing for you. No, I mean, I just feel like read it so that you can add to your little nightmares and then also watch the 48 hours on Daniel Marsch or go investigate his case. Claudia maupin and Chip Northup were so well loved and seem like just absolutely amazing people, and it was a huge loss to the Davis community and to their families and to society in general. When you you lose people like that. And so go watch why that little psychopath should stay in prison forever and ever and ever and die there. Agree 2013 I can't believe that. That's when it happened. That's that's recent and that's scary. I mean, it's recent enough. It's 11 years. It's very raw still. And it's something that I just I think about too much. It's one of those cases that was just, just haunted me. So now I am proud for it to haunt some of you as well and honor the the lives of Claudia and Chip by thinking about them and reading what their families had to say about them. And we'll have a spot over on Patreon to chat about the new house. So come on over and tell us what you thought about it. Thanks for listening. Bye! Thanks for listening. For more content, find us on Patreon at the Creepy Book Club. Happy reading!