Author Interview Anna Downes - Red River Road

Anna Downes absolutely goes there with us. We chat her newest book Red River Road and during our discussion we get into: domestic violence, cycles of violence, victim blaming and so much more. Anna also has breaking news she shares near the end of the interview!!!!! We cannot wait for you to hear what is in store for her.

TW: DV, SA, Kidnapping

FULL SPOILERS during this interview
 
https://anna-downes.com/

Follow Her here: https://www.instagram.com/anna_downes_writer?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==

Gabby Petito Case:
 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gabby-petito-brian-laundrie-case-story-deaths/

IFS:
https://psychology.org.au/for-members/publications/inpsych/2022/winter-2022/internal-family-systems-therapy

Jess Hill:
www.jesshill.net

Show Notes:
0:00-2:00 Introduction 
2:00-7:45 The Safe Place (no spoilers), Why does Anna Write thrillers?
8:00-15:00 Why did the book open in such a chaotic way?
15:00-22:00 Why solo van travel, what was the inspiration? Gabby Petito discussion 
22:00-29:00 The real dangers women face
29:15- 36:00 Creating the male characters and the dangers of a "hot take"
38:00 - 43:00 female relationships, women empowering women, why Katie and Beth were perfect for one another 
44:00- does she seek any inspiration from her own life for her characters? 

Subscribe on our patreon for weekly content and behind the scenes content with us at https://www.patreon.com/thecreepybookclub

Follow us on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/bookswithyourbesties

Follow us on TikTok at https://www.tiktok.com/@bookswithyourbesties

Music is Ur Karma (Instrumental Version) by Craig Reever.

The opinions expressed in this podcast are those of Emily and Ashley of The Creepy Book Club alone.

Transcript

anna downes

 Hi, I'm Emily. I'm Ashley, and this is books with your besties. Hi friends! Today we chat with Anna Downs. Most of our author interviews are on Patreon or behind a subscriber only wall. We felt like this interview was very important to share. Please make sure you check all of the trigger warnings See. before you listen to this episode. Happy listening. You. Hi, Anna. Okay. I'm not used to this. This is great. Hey. You're here. Hi, Anna. Yeah, hi. It's happy hour here. It's breakfast time there. So here we go. It's breakfast time, and I've had my coffee and I'm ready to go. It's very exciting for us here. It's getting to be happy. Hour time. It's 2 p.m. West Coast, 5 p.m.. So we're more happy hour. But, you know, we can all be happy with the cocktail or coffee. Exactly right. Exactly right. Oh, how lovely. I love doing these kind of, uh, international zoom clubs where everybody's on on different time. It's brilliant. We're so excited to have you. I'm going to kind of toss a little intro to our book club to remind them exactly who you are and why you're here. I just have to tell you before we start, Emily, who's the co-founder of this book club, and I have been unbelievably obsessed with you since we run the safe place. And we're like, why is this not in everyone's top five books of all time? Ever in the history of books. So, so kind. Thank you. I mean, you know, you're not supposed to have favorite books, but I feel like everybody's, you know, most authors would cite their first book as being their favorite because you put everything into it, you know, like that book is. And it changed my life as well. So thank you. That's really kind. It's lovely to hear. So for our members who are on, we're thrilled to have Anna with us today. Quick introduction. You were born and raised in Sheffield. You now live just north of Sydney with your husband and two kids. Yeah. Okay. And you started your career as an actress, but luckily pivoted to writing. Did I miss anything major in there? Oh, yeah. Okay, I already said Emily and I discovered you in 2020. It's actually The Safe Place is the book that we recommend to people because we feel like it is not talked about But I guess we're here to talk about Red River road today, so let's get into it. when you decided to become a writer and make that pivot, what was it that drew you to the thriller genre? Why did you choose that? So the answer is two pronged. I think that, um, first of all, I'd say that I wasn't really trying to write a thriller with the safe place. Um, the safe place came from sort of, um. It sort of came to me in three parts. The first part was that that house Carinthia is is a real place. And I worked, um, that job. I did Emily's job in 22,009 and 2010. Now, I didn't do it alone. I did it with my husband. But we worked for a very wealthy Anglo-American family. He was a finance guy. He owned his own hedge fund. And they had two kids. Actually, not not one child. They had two kids. Um, and, uh, we lived there. They, you know, so everything about currency in the book is, is as it is in the real place. So, um, and that job was bananas. And I remember thinking at the time, because somebody's got to write a book about this place, but I didn't think at that point that it would be me because I hadn't, you know, at that point, this the suggestion that I might write a book was sort of akin to somebody suggesting that. And like, um, you know, learn to play Piano Concerto. I was like, don't be ridiculous like that. That's not going to happen. Um, but the house was very much in my mind. Um, the other thing was, uh, I mean, we're not going full spoilers on a safe place here. I don't think so. I'll just say that there was a news story that really captured my heart and my attention. Um, and then it was Emily. So Emily's character and I really wanted to start her from a real point of emotional authenticity. The place that Emily starts, uh, the safe place was very much where I was, and I just kind of wanted to put her in a situation where she would really have to a, um, kind of, uh, what's the word? Sort of grow up, but also find, you know, really confront her shit. So it it kind of at one point I was pitching it as, like, commercial women's fiction because I think in the sort of the first submission, I was like, I don't know that this is necessarily as, um. You know, high stakes and thriller? Asked, as it turned out, um, it was, um, taken on by an agent who really helped me to develop the tension in the book. And then by the time we were on submission to publishers, it got picked up very much by a kind of crime thriller imprint. And then we worked even more with to change it completely, but it was more about kind of just tweaking certain story elements to make like to kind of, um, hit those genre markers. Um, I remember very specifically then saying, you know, you're really going to need a kind of a climax, you know, where, uh, everybody kind of, you know, all the truths come out and everybody breaks down and it's the, you know, the the villain explains why they did it. And I was like, I want to do that. That sounds really kind of cliched and sort of, you know, trippy and boring. And they were like, yeah. But at the same time, you do have a central mystery, and you do have a kind of, you know, you have perpetrators and you do actually have a crime that's been committed and a character that's kind of, you know, has discovered all of this in a very sort of, um, in a way that's really rocked her world. So as the reader, you really want to be able to ask all those questions at the end. And I was like, oh, that's why they have those scenes. Okay. So it was very much a process of kind of learning. Um, and then I think as we were teasing out all of those, um, those moments that were already in there, like the creepy stuff in the atmosphere, you know, like the bathtub and um, the kind of, um, the atmosphere of the house. It I really tapped into this completely. Um, I think sort of its very deep love of horror and love of, um, you know, I was the weird kid at the sleepovers that never wanted to watch Grease or Dirty Dancing. I wanted to watch Psycho and Poltergeist. So, like, you know, that's not something that I had to try very hard to achieve. But I have to say that, um, this is a very long answer to a very short question, but I have to say that it. It was more about me leaning into those, um, sort of proclivities a bit harder than I might have otherwise, where really what was coming out was just just a story about, you know, a girl who, um, discovers some stuff. Do you know what I mean? And then once you're, um, once you're kind of in a particular genre, it's it's then, you know, you sort of have to just keep going, which I'm fine with, because like I said, I, I really, really love the creep and love the dread and love and I love as a reader and as a consumer of, of, you know, TV and film, searching for clues and love the puzzle. I love being presented with a premise that acts like a riddle. You know, I'm like, what happened here? Like, what is this? I love that, so I think it does come naturally. Um, but it wasn't the first thing that I thought of. I wasn't like, I want to write something really tense and, like, really, um, creepy. Developed. It's almost like you learn how to write a book by writing your first book because they said no, this is where it's like, here's what you need to do. And you went, oh, okay, I can I can do that. I'll tell you. You are in perfect company here. Emily and I recorded a podcast episode this week about urban legends, and went on a sidebar about how we were raised on Unsolved Mysteries and Cops, not sitcoms like those were the show we were drawn to as children, not the on light funny. You just mentioned Unsolved Mysteries because my son has inherited he's he's ten years old and he's inherited this kind of hunger for the sort of horror stories which I interpret actually, as a kind of a hunger for mystery and big feelings as well. Like, he's a very kind of, um, you know, intuitive, sort of emotional kid. And I love that. And so we watched an episode of Unsolved Mysteries just the other day together. And, you know, there was sort of like two me's sitting there with him, one of which was like, oh my God, this is so cool. This is exactly what I did as a kid. This is great. This is going to be a really kind of, um, a lovely thing that we can do together. And the other me was like and was sitting on the couch watching a show about a body being chopped up and kind of, you know, distributed in small parts, uh, across, you know, across the country. I was like, I know that I'm being the best parent in this moment. And. I mean, it's the safety lessons. You're teaching them. Safety lessons? Yes, exactly. Yes. Exactly right. But get into Red River road, which was brilliant. The second we saw you dropped a new book, we were like, that's our book of the month. Whatever month it is, that is the book you're the book opens and you have Katie, and she has put herself in this very precarious, very dangerous situation involving alcohol, sleep deprivation and being in the middle of nowhere. Can you talk a little bit about choosing to start the book that way? I felt like it. Let us get to know her pretty well pretty quickly. Yeah. I'm so well again, I'll try not to make this a really long, rambly answer, but there are a few different components to it because that wasn't where I originally started off at all. And this idea, uh, it it sort of it took a lot of development. Um, and, you know, once you finish the book, you really understand why I had, you know, that the idea came to me whole in terms of, you know, uh, what happens to Phoebe. And her resulting condition was part of my original idea. It wasn't tacked on. It was like, that's the story. Now, what's the lived experience of that? What do you observe in somebody that's going through that? What's the, you know, the internal experience of, of the patient. Um, and so there were all different kinds of ways that potentially I could have written the story, and I'd feel like I'd tried about 47 of them, and it was a lot of kind of turning it around, you know, and sort of going, well, how much more effective is it if we if we change the voice here? What if it's third person rather than a first person? What if we what if we put in Phoebe's, um, you know, some kind of diary entry or Instagram posts? Um, and I think for me, it was so much, uh, it felt like a waste of time, uh, at the, you know, uh, a place. But I really went in deep into the characters and I wrote them all chronologically. So in the first draft of the book. The first, the third was all Katie, the second part, the middle was all there. And then the third part was all, um, Phoebe with Wyatt interspersed. Um, but why? This kind of thing was huge. It was very blown up. There were lots of characters, lots of stuff going on in gracious Bay. Um, it is same with the other three that there was a lot going on. So really the process of editing was about kind of compressing everything and condensing everything. And then in terms of where you start, um, I kind of wanted to ease into Katie's character and really give the reader an opportunity to orientate themselves within her, uh, situation as she perceives it. But it was, you know, it was quite slow. And I think a lot of the feedback from the editors was like, it just still feels like there's a lot of people just walking around feeling stuff. And I feel like this is a, you know, this is a situation that really needs to go off with a bang. And it wasn't really until, um, the, you know, right before the copy edit that my, uh, my editor in Australia said, you know what I think we should do? And she was like, don't hate me, because this is going to involve a lot of work. But she was like, I think we should just cut the feed. We need to chop everything up, like get everybody kind of all over the place. And then we need to, uh, get rid of the first act. And we need to start from the point of greatest tension, which is the end of at one, which is where, you know, which is now the beginning of the book. So that's quite a complicated way of describing it. But that's what we did. I can't imagine you finishing it and then having that discussion about having to rearrange, but it really did make you feel, you know, the book starts and you feel her sense of desperation and grief and confusion, and, I mean, you are instantly invested in what she's going to do and why it's traumatizing her this way. Well, that's such a great thing to say, because I think that was the, um, one of the major things that we really wanted to get right. Um, was this situation, if you take it out of context, is bananas. And I really, really, really didn't want readers to kind of come away going, okay, like that seems completely unrealistic or whatever. And so, you know, I think we all work really hard to try and find a way where you do feel immediately connected, and it is just a crazy situation. But immediately you're like, I understand, I understand why she's doing the the way she's doing. And I too have felt, you know, something similar or, you know, so it's that immediate sort of sense of disorientation. You're in a different country, you're trying something new, you're on an adventure and you're just going, I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know what I'm doing. And I've made some really stupid choices, and I'm sad and I'm desperate and I'm alone and, you know, it's it's those stakes, um, which we first meet, Katie. So it's important to feel those things. But it's also the point at which Katie meets herself. Do you know what I mean? It's like bang. Okay. And then it's sort of from that flavor, from that tone. The whole of her narrative then springs. Do you know what I mean? So it was the best decision. Ever. And I'm so happy that we did that. And it was the worst conversation ever, where she was like, we're going to have to get rid of the whole first half, like first, third and then just just see that information. Then throughout I was like, what do you mean? Do you mean I don't even know how to start doing that? Um, but it was it was actually brilliant because once, as is always the way with the editorial notes, once I grasped what they wanted me to do, I was like, oh, that's going to make it so much better. And yeah, so I was really grateful in the end, when you so quickly went from feeling concerned for Katy to such sadness for her, because she was so disappointed in herself that this felt like a cycle of a position she had put herself in a number of times. We could do an entire podcast on Just Katie, but let's keep going. when it comes to solo Vanlife travel, it seems like it's either something you have experienced or been interested in because I. I tend to see most of these stories of single women traveling with serial killers or paranormal pieces. And you. That was not this story at all. So can you talk a little bit about the choice to make it in a van, and if you have any experience with that? Yeah. Um, I mean, we're big campers. I was I was brought up camping in England. Um, my parents were both really keen on it and my dad particularly. So I kind of I feel like I was raised on campsites and we never had a van, per se. But, you know, van life is a big deal here in Australia. So in 2021, when, you know, we'd already had a year of, um, pandemic restrictions and, you know, the lockdowns were still rolling, it was sort of on everybody's mind. And you, you know, you kept um. You know, my my social media algorithms were just presenting me with this with violence constantly and videos of fit outs. And I was just like, oh, I just wish that we could kind of move our house around the country. So at least the landscape's changing. And that, I think, is what it's all about. It's it's about having your anchor and, you know, your, your, your home on wheels, where you have the freedom to change up your environment at your, your, you know, your whim. So that to me, is is a kind of a big draw and a big fascination. I also have done a lot of traveling. My family is really kind of nomadic in a lot of ways. Uh, we've all lived in lots of different countries, and I think that the, uh, the life of an itinerant and the community that you draw around yourself and particularly like I've done a lot of backpacking and, um, you know, the travel community is kind of a really odd one, like it's very, very warm and beautiful and supportive, particularly, I think, in this country with van lifers, you know, you have a lot of different types of people. Um, but I have to say, when I have traveled in a van in this country, I actually have very, very. I don't think I've felt threatened once, because you just feel surrounded by people who will be willing to help you. I don't know if that's just me being a little bit naive, actually, and not really opening my eyes to potential threats, but, you know, like, I, I, I kind of am that person anyway. I spend a lot of my time walking around going, oh no, no, everything's great. Everyone's kind. Um, which is again, sort of fascinating in itself because, you know, you've got the, um, you know, the, the kind of the Instagram aesthetic side of it as well, which is all beauty and, um, and kind of pretty furnishings and, and gorgeous fans that are never dirty, they're never dusty, there's never full of mud or sand and they never stink, which obviously in reality they do. So there's that incredible kind of dichotomy between reality and the fantasy. Um, so I think what it was was an obsession, a growing obsession in 2021 where I was like, if I can't get a van and go traveling, I want to write about one. Um, and yeah, this fascination with. Campsites where you sort of have, uh, you have this sort of immediate intimacy with the people around you. Um, you know, like you're when you're camping and you go in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, you know, you're crossing through a campsite and you're stumbling into people. They're all in their pajamas, and they've all got their sleepy eyes. And, you know, you're kind of seeing people in this sort of very private, intimate time and space. Um, and yet they're complete strangers so that, you know, the bonding of that as well. And the fact that you're all going through heightened experiences, I think that's really interesting, too, that, you know, these these bonds are very quickly made, these very intimate kind of. And you trust people. You just do you just you trust people as you meet them. You know, if you're kind of grilling meat around a barbecue, you know, the amount of times we've met people and we've become best friends with them by the end of the day, but they could be anybody. Um, so all of that was was incredibly interesting to me. And then, like you said, um, when I kind of got the idea to do that, I was like, oh, this is going to be so fun. I'm going to write the most kind of creepy, thrilling story that I can possibly think of, and it's going to be, you know, it's going to have, um, serial killers hidden in the outback, you know, these psychopathic farmers that spring from nowhere. And they're going to, you know, they abduct, um, backpackers and they, like, eat them in a pig shed, and then they'll be a be ghost because there are lots of haunted, you know, areas in Australia and haunted roads and farms that it's going to be really, really scary with a big body count, that kind of thing. And then, um, you know, you start looking into these real life stories. You start looking into the haunted, you know, the most haunted roads in Australia, and you start realizing that they all spring from these really quite bleak stories. Um, not to mention, um, you know, the most obvious point of my inspiration, I think, which was the, uh, the Gabby Petito story, um, which at the time, you know, if you kind of chart public reaction to that story, you know, it was lots of titillation, lots of kind of, um, uh, just excruciating interest and curiosity and people going, oh, you know, pretty white girl goes missing. Let's kind of delve into her, into her past and let's look at like, you know, there's so many kind of internet sleuths and, and amateur detectives trying to figure out what happened to her. And, and the comments are all like, she's been taken, she's been abducted. She's been, you know, locked in the proverbial big shed, you know? And the bleak truth is, we now know, obviously, is that she was killed by her intimate partner. So that led me down a kind of a horrendous rabbit hole where I was like, What's the truth behind a lot of these kind of cautionary tales and horror stories that we hear? And by and large, so many of them are quite similar in nature. You know, these, these 70% of certainly in this country of of all the homicide victims knew their perpetrator. And that statistic is so much larger for women. And so I think that was a little bit like, you know, that was a bit of a smack in the mouth in a way, because as a crime thriller writer, you know, you have to appreciate that there's such value in escapism and, um, you know, adrenaline. And, you know, I love a scare. I love that feeling of like, what's going to happen? But at the same time, there's this kind of there was this realization that actually all of these narratives that we put out in the world are actually impacting how we think of as, you know, what's it affects our perception of safety, particularly around women and around their limitations. It's like, hey, um, Ashley, do not go traveling on your own in a van because of the serial killers. You know, like you don't know what's out there. Someone's going to grab you, someone's going to do something awful to you. And actually, the truth of the matter is that you are way more likely to experience harm at the hands of somebody inside the van, somebody that's traveling with you or somebody that you meet and develop a relationship with. It's nothing to do with the darkness outside the van, you know, it's well, not nothing that is a kind of a factor, but it's just. And I was like, oh my God, are these stories that we tell like. And we put out that in the mainstream? Are they actually acting as a bit of a smokescreen? Are they kind of, you know, they're our way of numbing ourselves to what's the real danger is so that we're not actually talking in a healthful way anymore to, to women about what, you know, what they're what we're supposed to be protecting ourselves from. And then it goes on because you're like, why? Why is it on us? Why are we supposed to protect ourselves? You know, who's talking to the dudes? And so then when I went and did a lot of research around, um. You know how online? Like, what messages are we getting in this space? Um, it was very clear to me that the guys are left out of the conversation entirely. There is so many websites dedicated to safety rules for women, safety tips for women, how to look after yourself, what products you can buy, what alarms you need, what rules you have to follow and not one is dedicated to men saying how you can keep yourself safe, guys, or how to be an ally to women on the road, and how to make sure you have to look after them, or make sure that they feel safe and there's nothing. It's like it's not their conversation, nothing to do with the boys. You go off and talk about, um, cars and, and and football and, and barbecues. You know, it's it's it's kind of bullshit. So that sort of got me a little bit fired up. And I was like, oh, like, how do we, as storytellers find a sweet spot in the middle? That's like, it's entertaining, it's fun. It's it's kind of hot, uh, racing, but it's also responsible. Yeah. It reminds what you're saying. Reminds me so much of. I'm a part of the running community, and when a female runner goes missing, it's always, was she alone in the dark? Blah blah blah. And the question is never why do men kill women? Like we asking the wrong questions? And I thought you did a great job in Phoebe constantly having to talk to people about safety and vanlife being like, this feels a little victim. Blame me. Like, why are we talking more about her giving you safety tips than about why do women feel unsafe in the first place? Exactly. Exactly. And I feel like if we don't, if we don't as storytellers start utilizing those conversations and bringing them into our narratives. You know, we're never, you know, we're we're sort of robbing ourselves of the opportunity to explore that in conversation and kind of explore that in a safe way and in an imaginative way. And sure, like, yeah, in a fun way as well. But like, if we keep writing stories about, you know, axe wielding rogue serial killers that murder people just because we're not we're not contributing anything, we're not moving anything on. And we're certainly not helping any women. On yearbook in Red River road. It was about things that are really scary, like domestic violence, like the things that women face every day, which are not serial killers or ghosts. It's the real. Yeah, the real thing, the real deal, which also really harms men as well. You know, there were male victims in Red River road as well. It's all encompassing. It kind of cheats the boys as well. Um, and so it is their conversation to have and not in it, just in a sense of you boys, you're not in your best fit. You know, it's not that. It's it's you're also, um, being really, um, disadvantaged by this. Um. Yeah. So I feel like it's it's just a wonderful conversation to have. And I particularly really appreciate having chats with, with book clubs where you can delve into it properly because otherwise with, you know, with a lot of with all of my books, I think there's sort of two halves of it. And the first half is what you see in the second half is what you don't see. And often what you don't see is the thing that I really want to talk about. Um, yeah. So it's really nice. One of the things we tried to do here, and that will lead me into the next question, is I try to look at all the interviews you have already done and stray away from some of the most predictable questions, because our book club members can Google that and find those anywhere. Because we really want to know the message behind, you know, you don't just write a book like this because you don't want to teach the world about something. So we try to get to and just have discussions because I think it's kind of dangerous as well to kind of have a hot take. You know, I'm not sure that it's our job to have a hot take, but I do think it's our job to communicate what we feel really, really deeply. And it's something that really grabs us and speaks to us and encourage conversation. I mean, like I keep saying that, the other thing is that, you know, the value of escapism and a really good, fun story. So we are entertaining as well. It is also our job to entertain. So we can't just kind of teach, you know, it can't be didactic in, in a kind of pure or traditional sense. It's just about saying asking questions. It's just asking questions. It's opening eyes. And you also can't ask questions effectively if you're not, um, uh, if you're not giving the reader a chance to feel emotionally, you know what? What? Might this experience be like if it was happening to somebody that you know or you love? Sorry I completely interrupted you there. I'm sorry. The goal was for me to talk as little as possible, and you need to do what you're doing. So I just have a few more questions. One. So, Rory being a serial killer or killer, and Lucas following in his abusive footsteps felt like a very brutally honest depiction of the cycle of violence in families, which included Wyatt feeling like the ultimate, um, in a sense, victim of being raised in this home. Can you just talk us through a little bit about writing these male characters? I feel like we can find out why you wrote Beth and Phoebe anywhere, but I haven't seen anybody ask you about the male characters in this book. Yeah. So, um, again, this book went through lots and lots of different, um, iterations, for want of a better word. And I, I feel like there was a stage at which it became very clear that I hadn't paid as much attention to the male characters as I should have done. And I was like, actually, this sucks because there's nobody that's inherently decent. I have to say, in the very first draft of the book, Wyatt was actually the the killer. He was the perpetrator. I know, I know. Well, this is the thing. And I think because I was trying desperately to make this thing work, and I wrote it quite quickly and I gave it to my team and they were like, oh no, no, no. They're like, that is so bleak. It's so horrible. We can't even. They're like, well, you're good, I can't even you're gonna have to just take it away and do it. So I was like, oh, okay, message received. But that was about, you know, because the first draft was all about how do you chart the process of, you know, a beautiful kid with awe and wonder and imagination and, you know, all of that to becoming something really quite dark because of what he's been exposed to or because of the blueprint that he's been given or because of, you know, what's going on in his surroundings and what's normalized for him. And so, you know, I wrote that with a lot of compassion and tried to show that, but the team was like, no, we can't do that. That's just horrible. And so that was a case of then really, again, like just digging deeper in terms of what the lived experience of these people might be like. Um, and I feel a feel bad for all of them. You know, I feel like, you know, when you read this story, what I hope is that you come away with a kind of a sense of, um, tragedy. You know, these these men are. I'm trapped. And, you know, Lucas, I think is a really interesting character because he's so sad that he is what he is and he can't control it and he can't fight it. And I feel like one of the the biggest things I wanted to convey is that, you know, why do why do people do bad things? A huge part of that answer comes down to, how are people trying to survive? And what tools have they been given? What messages have they been given? What do they think they're trying to survive? You know, um, I don't know if you are at all familiar with the IFS, uh, model of psychology that's mentioned at the end, internal family systems. But it's about, um, it's about understanding the theory that we are not mono minded. We actually contain multitudes. So it's almost like there are lots of different people within us. And, uh, when we are in trouble. Almost the youngest part of us. Uh, you know, that's that's kind of the most vulnerable part of us. And it's usually a part that's been really squashed down and all these other parts of us start jumping in to try and save them. So, for example, um, somebody who becomes an alcoholic might have a very young part within them who was taught, um, that their feelings, their big feelings are not welcome, that big feelings are not to be trusted, they are to be hidden. They're shameful, uh, that they're terrifying. You know, people can't deal with them. And so whenever that little young part starts to rise up and goes, I've got big feelings. I've got big feelings. Another part of us jumped straight in and goes, num num num it and drink this alcohol. Don't feel it, push it down. This is that part. Rather than being, uh, a kind of an awful, horrendous thing again. You have to squash and remove like a, you know, fix it, fix it. It's about understanding that that part of you is trying to help you, is trying to help that little is trying to protect that the most vulnerable part of you. And so then it's about just understanding that and, and kind of almost going, well, thank you for trying to help me, but I'm a grown ass woman now. I'm not a small child. And so you don't have to do that anymore. You know, maybe we could find another job for you within the system where you can still feel helpful, but you don't have to, you know, tell us. I don't know if that makes any sense. I'm probably not explaining it that well, but that with with the male characters, that's what I was trying to do, which is say yes, then doing terrible things. And how were they also just trying to save themselves? How are they trying to protect their most vulnerable parts, and how with conversations about why the men kill women, it's about understanding. How men in those situations feel like they have no other option because they, you know, they feel like they don't have power. And they've been taught that the only way to control a chaotic environment is through violence. The only way to protect themselves is through getting big and getting angry. And, you know, like they don't know how to do it any other way. I mean, that is a huge generalization, and it's also a little bit infantilizing. I understand that because it's the conversation is so nuanced. And of course there's choice. You know, of course there's free will. Um, but I do think that that is part of the conversation. And I don't think that any problem in the world has ever been solved by kind of yelling bad dog at people because they will immediately, you know, either go defensive or get, you know, feel like they're under attack. And actually, for the most part, human beings just want to be heard. They want to be heard, and they want their experience to be validated. So you know, it's it's like parenting, you know, if your child is thrown off the deep end personally. And I know there are many different ways to power it, but one of the big things I think is saying to them, I believe you. I believe that you're feeling this way. Um, it's okay to feel this way, and let's just understand where it comes from. Rather than saying, get in your room. I'm disgusted with you. Get out of my sight. Do you know what I mean? yes, the choices he's making are horrible, but it's okay to feel. It's okay to feel sad for who he is and how he ended up this way. It's a tragedy. It's really sad. And and I think, again, um, there's a wonderful, uh, author and activist, um, for, you know, the, the criminalization of coercive control here in Australia named Jess Hill. Um, and she says it's not enough to tell, you know, these, these stories. It's not enough to kind of, uh, recount the facts and the statistics. You've got to make this shit feel viscerally real to people, because, you know, you've got to make that heart quickly, and you've got to make them feel sad, because otherwise you don't feel sad. For Lucas, it's just it again, it's not really engaging with with the problems. It's not really understanding that he's been victimized, too. Um, yeah. I think I hope that people feel sad for him. I mean, and also angry, like he is also a shitbag. And that's the other thing about telling stories, which is kind of understanding that all the things are true at once. You know, they're all true at once. But the only way I think that we can ever get past a huge, controversial, nuanced issues like domestic violence is to prioritize lived experience, to engage with lived experience, and really kind of start understanding what that where it sits in the wider, the wider picture. You know how we come to that and do that with compassion and with curiosity? Um, otherwise we're just disengaging. The last question, and as I read it to myself, it makes sense to me, may not make sense to you, so let me know if it doesn't. We in our book club. One of the themes throughout the books we pick that we love is just the female relationships, women empowering women, how we show up for one another in these times of need and desperation. And there was a quote in your book that said, some people know exactly how to inflict pain without evidence, and it seems to be a piece of the tie that binds your two female characters together in your mind or in writing the book. Beth and Katie were clearly connected by more than just this road trip that they did together. Can you talk just a little bit about their relationship and how connected they were through such different traumas? Yeah, well, I mean, again, I think this female friendship plays such a massive part in my life, like the women that I have around me, um, so deeply enrich my life. And I, I hope that I enrich theirs as much as they do mine. And I think part of that is, um, you know, um, mirroring and reflecting our, our kind of greatness, but also sharing and holding each other's vulnerabilities. And I think that with, um, Katie and Beth, I almost wanted them to be sort of two sides to the same coin in a way, but like, uh, in a more sort of logistical sense, it's like they each hold the key to each other's freedom or each other's, um, self-awareness and so many, so much of the time, you know, we're so we walk through life with this very, very, very subjective view about the world, you know, and it's all about sort of where we are in, in, in our own kind of, um, emotional mire or psychological. Bubble or whatever. Um, and it's not really until somebody else comes along and says, I too feel that way, or I too have been through that or whatever, that you can kind of, um, open up a little bit and, and start to understand, you know, get a bit of perspective. I think what I wanted more than anything is for them to, um, to be the only people. So for Katie, Beth is the only person that could have that could solve her mystery. And for for Beth. Katie is the only person that could really have, um, set her free in that moment and given her those opportunities. Um, and I think, I mean, they're connected in that in the sense that they, uh, they help each other survive, but they also kind of lead each other to this, kind of, this, this questioning of, of themselves and their place in the world. And, you know, in, in kind of understanding what each other were going through, you know, how like, you can you can always, um, give advice, but you can very rarely follow it yourself. You know, it's it's that thing of looking at somebody and going, hey, you might need to to kind of have a little look, that look what you're going through. And then the other person going, yeah, I think you've got a few things and that'll be a kind of a service in a way, like a beautiful thing. And um, so the two of them, I think the urgency of that story is that probably I don't know where either of them would be without the other. I don't know if they would have managed to get out of what I feel like, if it if it hadn't been for each other, they might not have survived that's how I feel a lot about, you know, my, the women in my life. It's like we're all. Kind of micro, saving each other all the time. We always say, kind of in my circle of female friends, that there's no week where we're ever just having a good week. Someone's here, someone's here, and the other person has to lift this person up. And then the next week it's this person's turn. And in in the book, it felt that way. It felt like they were allowed to each have these very raw, very ugly moments, while the other one was kind of doing okay, and then it switched. And then in the end, they just had this lived experience to bind them forever. But really, it was what they came to the table with at first that made them perfect for one another. Yes, that's exactly it. Yeah. Um, and, uh, yeah, I'm really kind of hoping that there's, um, you know, just, just quietly, there's a really nice offer in the works for it to be made into a TV show. Um, and yeah, it was it was really exciting. But, like, I really hope that I get the opportunity to to work on on that in a, in, um, you know, in a, in a different sense again, because it is just such a, um, a profound way of looking at female relationships that we're all, um, holding the key to each other's, uh, freedom, um, and, and self-reflection and, uh, yeah, I think it's beautiful. And the other thing is that, um, those three points of view. So, uh k-t-v-b. And Beth and Wyatt, they're all. They're all victims. So there's, you know, they're all telling, um, their story. They are. It's giving voice to each of the victims. And what binds them all together is that they are all, uh, direct descendants of Rory's actions. And then you kind of start to understand the pyramid, because, Rory, you know what Rory came from as well and what he's been through. Um, again, not it doesn't excuse it. It doesn't excuse the choices, but it does explain. And so yeah, that's how they're all connected as well. Well, thank you so much. I'm going to let a couple members, if they have questions ask them. You guys will have to use the little annoying hand raising thing. Um, Leslie, you can't ask a question because you're driving. Um, is there anyone who would like to ask Anna a question while we have her here? And no pressure at all. Um, you know, it's really fine if no one does. Um. Oh, Aggie. Yeah. Thank you. Just maybe one question. More of a process. Question. When you write your characters, do you choose one to speak through? I think certainly in in first drafts, there's usually somebody that's kind of representing my point of view because I think, um, an idea really isn't an idea unless it's coming directly from your heart. Uh, and it's something that you really believe in and feel and, and so I think that K-t-v-b was, was really, uh, the closest to, um, me understanding or, you know, they were like, my mouthpiece for a little while. And then as the story develops, inevitably our characters start taking on different traits and different opinions and different, um, uh, different characteristics, just out of necessity, out of plot, you know, narrative necessity. Um, well, I think, though, that you're right. Thinking about I'm not sure that I've ever thought about it quite that way before, because all of the characters are me in, in, um, you know, in some way. Um, but I do think in the safe place Emily is, is very much, you know, that's that's my voice in the shadow house, Alex. And, um, I think to a certain extent with this one, I mean, they are like Phoebes, Phoebe and Casey. They're in pretty extreme circumstances, and. But there are things that they they say and that they believe, like, for example, right at the beginning when, um. Katie is sort of making her list about, you know, she's like, I'm starting to forget her. I need to make a list of things like she she never finishes her drinks. She always leaves a couple of inches in the bottom for like, no discernible reason. She always eats Apple cores in the car, and she leaves them, you know, in the cup holder, I do that, do you know what I mean? So I was thinking, like, if that was if that was me and I was trying to remember myself, like, what would I pick out? And I was like, those are the things. Because people always comment on them. Like, my husband's always like, why are there glasses all over the house with two inches of liquid in the bottom? This is so weird. What's wrong with you? So little things like that that then they they kind of by default you feel kind of emotionally very close to them. So in a situation, you're much more likely to infuse their actions and their choices with what you would do as opposed to someone like Wyatt, where I really had to put myself in a completely different point of view. I mean, again, all of them, that they're all coming from my heart, my mind. And so, you know, I'm a trained actor as well. So it's kind of it's not hard for me to put myself into other people's shoes and try and imagine what they would do, but in terms of who I am or what my personality is, um, but there's there's part of me in, um, Beth as well, I think. I think that's a really interesting question. Like, who is your mouthpiece? Um, and I think, yeah, I think I would say that k-t-v-b to a, uh, a kind of a maybe lesser extent than the other books, but. Yeah. Thank you for that. Really made me think about that. Uh, Brandy, feel free to ask your question, and then we will let Anna go. I don't so much of a it's not a question. Just. I love the way you describe the camping experience. My husband and I are avid campers, the camp 4 to 5 times when the weather permits. Um, we're in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area. And just those connections you we I never I never thought about it the way you described it, but you do make those random connections with people. You see people and like, you know, in ways you wouldn't typically see that like, camping is just a whole different world. And I just love the way you describe that. Thank you. And totally accurate. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that was that was another kind of goal was, um, I just really wanted to make that experience as sort of authentic as possible. But there have been times. Do you have a, like, a van or do you have a tent or what do you how do you do it? Written camp. Yeah, I'm a tenant camper is cool. And so when we go, um, we go to certain campsites because we've got small kids as well where we let you know for the last sort of, um, five years or so, we've been much more, you know, going to those holiday parks where there are, you know, there's like a pillow or there's a, there's a pool or something for the kids to do. But given a choice, we we'd be kind of off grid and wild camping. But those holiday parks where there are lots of people and, you know, they've got good facilities and, you know, there might be a bar or a camp shop or something. You can walk around there late at night. And like I was saying before, you know, you'll see people in all kinds of disarray and kind of, um, undress and, but also that the sounds that you hear like, you know, you walk past somebody's tent, you'll hear a part of a conversation, something else you'll hear like a really strange noise. You could wake up in the night and hear someone snoring as close as if they were right next to you. And then also just the scream of the of the zips, you know, it's all like constant kind of these really strange noises, um, that I think is so particular to that world. And I really wanted to evoke that as much as possible, because it's quite a singular experience, and people either love it or they really hate it. And yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can feel really close to people as well within sort of hours. Yeah. Um, which I thought, you know, when I was trying to develop what Beth and Lucas are doing, I'm like, you could actually do that and really easily, particularly if you look a certain way, because people just take you at face value and you're just like, hey, you know, like pop across to you, your canvas neighbor and be like, yeah, like tomato sauce. We could we could use that. And then you strike up a conversation and then next thing you know, you're all going to the beach the next day together. Like I said, there could be anybody. Get that tank. You so much for taking an hour to spend with us. I think we could talk for another hour. Your book was just absolutely tremendous. We can't wait to read whatever else you write or watch the show if you need. If you need a book club to watch the show before you release it to the world, we're happy to do that for you. I will totally, totally be in touch with you about that. That will be. I'll keep you posted as well, because it's a really new thing, but it's very, very exciting. I'm really happy. And I've got a, um, I've actually got an audio drama coming out next year. So if you I don't know if you guys do audio books, but I'm just editing that at the moment. And so it's called Break Me Down and it's, it's going to have like it's sort of part prose, part scripted scene. So it's going to be quite interesting to listen to, I hope. Um, so I don't know, maybe, maybe I'll be in touch with you about that. See if you fancy that you love to talk you. Absolutely anytime. So thank you for being so generous with your time. We're so appreciative. And thank you for picking the book. Thank you for reading it. And thank you for supporting authors and our stories like, you know, book clubs like you. And, uh, you're invaluable. A wonderful thank you so much. Thank you. Vienna. Bye. You guys. Bye. Take care. Have a lovely evening. Afternoon. Thanks for listening. For more content, find us on Patreon at the Creepy Book Club. Happy reading!