Celisia Stanton sits down with Emily and Ashley

Plug in and listen to our get to know you interview with the host of Truer Crime, Celisia Stanton. How did being the victim of a crime help catapult her into the podcasting space and what else does she want us to know about her (other than how much she loves her cats). We feel incredibly lucky she chose to spend nearly an hour with us. Please follow her social media accounts and be sure to rate and review Truer Crime. 

Show Notes: 

Introduction 

Who is Celisia 

2:00-7:00  A handful of FUN get to know you questions 

7:00-12:00 How she got into podcasting 

13:00 How her true crime stories are different

16:00-22:00  How she picks the stories she picks and some specifics about a handful of them

22:30 How does she take care of herself while recording 

25:00 Live Show updates?

26:00 What does she want people to know about podcasting?

29:00 Current state of affairs

https://www.instagram.com/celisiastanton/?hl=en

https://www.instagram.com/truercrimepod/?hl=en

https://truercrimepodcast.com/

https://celisiastanton.com/

https://www.instagram.com/ashleyspivey/

Transcript

Celisia interview 

 Hi, I'm Emily. I'm Ashley, and this is books with your besties. So hi, besties. We are back with Felicia Stanton. She is the host of True Crime, and she's going to be spending a little bit of time with us today. So, Silvia, just tell us a little bit about who you are, where you live and anything else we should know about you. Yeah. So, um, like you said, I'm Felicia. I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I'm a really big fan of Minneapolis in the Twin Cities in general. I feel like people, you know, don't think much of us out here in the middle of the country, but they're it's a lot of fun so I'm really proud to be from here. But I am the host and creator of True Crime, which is a podcast, a true crime podcast that really seeks to go deeper with more nuanced context and questions. And I also am a wedding and portrait photographer as That's fascinating. I recently ran a marathon in your state and found it to be the place that had the nicest people of all time in the history of people. No. Yeah. And did you run in the I ran grandma's marathon. Oh. Is in Duluth Yeah, well, I was just going to say that I love that here. It's such a fun combination of, like, city and nature, but good. I'm glad that you got the good like, Minnesota. Nice going to run you through ten kind of fun questions so people can get to know you. Luckily, there are no right or wrong answers. So the first one is super simple. What is your favorite beverage or I feel like I'm a big juice person. I really love soda too. I love like any like non water beverages. will get like iced tea, like a sweet tea, or like a raspberry iced tea and like, that's like off limits. Like my husband can't touch that. So I'll have to go with love that, Emily. I can see her laughing because I also do not drink water. I will drink anything except water. Right? Exactly. I'm trying to become like a sparkling water girly. It's sort of working. I've always hated sparkling water, but it's kind of growing on me now, so it's a good way to try to get some more hydration in would you say is your best vacation gotten to go to some pretty cool places. One of my favorites is Copenhagen, Denmark. Um, which kind of I just went to sort of unexpectedly like, I don't feel like a lot of people, at least here in the US, are like, oh, I'm going to travel to Copenhagen. But I had, um, followed some people who lived there. And so I was like, it looks really cool and interesting. So we did. My husband and I did a trip out there for like two weeks a couple of years ago. And I loved the fashion, the food, the food, like the food scene was great. But then they also had like great bakeries and things like that. was just it was a fun one's pretty predictable with the name of our podcast, books with Your Besties, but what is one of your favorite Okay. I feel like I'm really on a on a, well, a romance and a memoir kick. So it's, like, always hard for me to, like, pick which one. But right now, um, I'm listening to Ina Garten memoir, and that's super really interesting. Kind of hear her experiences, especially like, it's making me think a lot about feminism and gender roles have kind of shifted over time and just kind of like the hard that we have in society then, like a little second would be. I also read Katie Couric memoir, and hers was really interesting as well. some similar reasons, too, especially as, like a woman in a male dominated industry. also kind of just a little bit interesting and salacious because she's covered a lot of things and met a lot of celebrities. So it was a good also feel like Katie, I'm going to read that based off of your recommendation. kind of loud about things when women weren't really loud about them, so I'd like to hear if she tells any of those stories about deciding to to say something when most people expected her. Probably not definitely. And yeah, she like, I felt like she really did not hold back. She kind of like fully it was like going through all these different points in her life and like what know, just kind of what her perspective is. And I don't feel like she was scared about, like offending anyone or anything like that. So I really appreciated that, that authenticity. there another creator either on Instagram, TikTok, any platforms or podcast hosts that you would like to shout out to bring attention sorry, you said podcast creator or creator on Instagram or like a social media person, any type of a creator I who I follow on Instagram is Ashley Spivey. I just, I really actually she, she reminds me a lot of your account, Ashley and that I what I really love and respect What she shares is like, you know, she'll share all this stuff about her life. And, you know, she she has a young daughter and, um, you know, lives in New York and so and loves to eat good food and all this cool, fun things. But she really also brings in her political perspective and, you know, shares about, um, social issues that she, she cares about. And she's just very unapologetic in a way that I think is sometimes really hard to find, especially in kind of that influencer space. so love her content. And then her sister Alexis, Vivi, um, also has an account that's really great as well. And they often do like different cool collabs and things or like, I love they do like a cookbook of the month, um, sometimes where they'll cook all the different recipes from this one book in one month, and that's kind of fun. Um, so I feel like it's just a really good, that's awesome. I think I follow Ashley, but not her sister, so I'll have to check. I'll have to check them out. Thank you for is one of your hobbies or interests outside of podcasting and would say I really love why I spend a lot of time with my cats. I have three cats, Jean-Jacques, Piedmont and Newton. Um, and I'm a big, like, cat person. So, um, just kind of honestly, so much of my day is like, oh my. Oh, look at that cute position there. And oh my gosh, look at this cute position they're in. I really enjoy that. But I'm also kind of foodie. And I love trying out new restaurants and bars of that and kind of just checking out the trendy spaces. And I feel like Minneapolis has a really good food scene, too. So, um, it's fun to our families don't listen to our podcast. I don't think they do. But when we were at retreat, Emily and I were like, do you know who we miss the most are dogs, right? You know, because they're there all the time. And especially if you work from home, it's just you don't know if they understand you when you go on a trip and you're like, I'm not. Yeah, ever. I promise I'm coming know, I know, I literally have like a little cat cam that I have plugged in just so I can, like, look at it and make sure that because with cats too, it's like with a dog you, like really need a dog sitter. But with my cats, I'll have someone just drop in usually once a day. So I like having my little camera to be like, okay, thanks God, they're doing the same things they literally always think my it used to be my children all the time, dog is now like psycho when I'm on a zoom. Like, she she shouldn't interrupt me. So already she was whining and I had to let her out and that never happened. So if I turn my camera off, just so you know, it's to tend to the dog of all would you say that you do your best am a big morning person. I up. I live my my husband always jokes. I live like three lives before he'll wake up. So sometimes it can be like, okay, well, what were the lives that you lived today? And it was like, okay, well, I went and I like, went down this whole deep dive on the internet and then I, you know, so now I can tell you all about this, like really niche thing that like, no one even needs to know about. And then, you know, I planned our whole vacation and also I wrote, pages for, like, this episode I'm working on for true crime. So definitely in the morning, try to like, condense as much like of the high productivity things into that morning shared this at retreat and joked that she and I will just start blasting each other at seven in the morning with our ideas and our plans for the day, and then we basically don't communicate after 5 p.m.. It's like it's an unwritten rule between the two of us that's like, our brains are done, there's nothing happening after 5 p.m.. Yeah, I feel exactly the same just a little bit deeper questions. did you get started with in traditional path for me. I mentioned before that I'm a wedding and portrait photographer, and that's something I've done since basically right out of college. Um, and, you know, going into 2020, obviously not a great time to be working in events. There weren't a lot of weddings going on. Um, and so I found myself with a lot of extra time on my hands. Um, and living in Minneapolis, you know, after the murder of George Floyd, this is obviously a really big thing in my community and something that I was pretty involved with just in terms of, like the activism, um, and the just the bigger community conversation that was happening. And so I started sharing about, like, racial and social justice issues and some like, educational posts, really, um, kind of in the aftermath of that and found perspective and some of the things I was sharing really resonated with folks. I had go viral and just kind of grew a following, um, on Instagram. Never had done anything like that before, but that kind of like ignited in me this idea of like, okay, do find something about my perspective, or, you know, worth engaging with and I and, and for me, you know, being a black woman who lives in the Midwest, I was raised by gay parents. You know, all of these things sort of shape how I see the world. Also, debate in high school. Coached it for over ten years. I'm somebody who really loves to engage with things in like a critical, deeper way. And so I wanted to continue to to do some of that work that I had done on Instagram, but I didn't necessarily want to do it in the social um, format or sphere, I guess mostly just because it just didn't fit the way that I normally kind of like to engage on topics. I feel like sometimes social media can feel pretty black and white and nuanced, and it can be hard to kind of keep people's attention. And I also found, like in the aftermath of growing this following, like a lot of people kind of after, you know, the energy had died down, were kind of like not necessarily interested in engaging with the people that they had followed immediately after, um, George Floyd's murder. And so I knew that, like longer term, I wanted to to kind of share some of those messages and have some of those conversations, but maybe in a different way. And I didn't know what that was going to look like. And then sort of simultaneously, I was actually working with this financial advisor just as a self-employed person wanting to kind of Make some plans for my future, like save for retirement or bigger goals down the line and not knowing exactly how to do that. And I had found this guy who was really great because he was really kind of focused on on. said that his sort of values were about giving people who are traditionally denied access to financial systems some of that access. So that really appealed to me. I felt like we were super aligned in that way. Um, and so, you know, a lot of his clients were black folks, women, solopreneurs, all of Um, he was a black man himself. So that was like, just cool to to find um, like that in, in this industry that is diverse or not diverse. And started working together. And then long story short, turns out he was actually defrauding all of his investor clients. Um, so we stole more than $2 million from all of all the folks he was working with just for personal things, you know, to go on cruises and buy a nice cars and all of that. so obviously that was like a really crazy situation. I and just, you know, then was kind of thrust into the criminal legal process. Um ultimately ended up turning himself into the FBI, pleading guilty, getting sentenced to a seven year prison term, which is where he is for me, in the aftermath of all of that, I was really left kind of reeling and and just it was December of 2020. So it's kind of a depressing time. It's freezing it's Minnesota. And like, I was just doing cat puzzles and listening to true crime podcasts all day. Um, and I would be pausing these shows all the time and like, kind of, um, complaining to my husband about the things I felt like were missing, specifically, some of those things that I was saying earlier about, like, my perspective, you know, they weren't really talking about race or gender or sexuality or the root causes of crime or any of those things. Um, and so I just felt like there was so much more that could be a part of these stories. Um, and so I basically complained enough to my husband that he was should start your own podcast. Um, so that's what I did. Um, and I it was kind of a great way, a great venue for me to also do some of that work that I had really liked doing, um, on Instagram initially, but in a longer format and in a medium that I knew would really connect with people, which is true crime storytelling. You know, a lot of folks really are invested in true crime, and it's a super popular genre and it is entertaining. I mean, even myself, I was binging episode after episode after episode, but, um, true or crime, my show was really about how can you take that sort of engagement that you have from the listener and then mobilize that for something greater, right? You know, can we have the takeaways from these stories to be like to go out into our communities, have critical conversations, you know, um, uh, lead people to donate or to volunteer their time or just to see people in their lives with more nuance and more empathy. Um, so that's my very, like, long, roundabout way that I ended up here. But it's been a fun ride and I really enjoyed putting out the show. And we just we're in the middle of putting out season two right now, but I put out that first season completely independently in spring of 2021 and hoping to to do more in the future walked me right into the next question, but I'm going to just tell you a quick story before asking it. We recently read a book called Lake of Lost Girls, and there are two podcast hosts on it who are telling the story of this girl that had gone missing. And in in the book, the family members of the girl that had gone missing are saying like, how dare they tell our story? This is our family story and they're using it for entertainment. And we were interviewing the authors, and we brought up your show and how it really has made a number of us critically look at the true crime we are listening to, to be like, are we listening to this because it's just entertainment and there's no actual outcome. They're just telling a story. Or are there some actionable items or just ways? It makes me look at the world in a different way, and it feels like it's beneficial to listen to it. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I actually like I'm I think that's interesting. That point you brought up. when I was first starting True Crime, I'd come across this, um, I just sort of statement that to me, a Rices mom had made about, um, kind of just how she felt like act some activists had maybe like, taken advantage of this story and that she was ultimately like, this is not your story. This is my story. This is our story. Our story being the community's story, like her immediate family and community. Um, and it really made me think about like, well, what does, like, determine whose story? Somebody some like these stories are right. Like, are they just the families? Um, and I think that, you know, certainly I think we have a as true crime storytellers, um, and in true crime media, we have some sort of obligation to direct resources and support to those who are most directly affected. But then it's also about, you know, so often stories end up taking on a life beyond the initial, you know, sort of, um, people that it impacted. I think George Floyd being a really, example of that. Right. You have this sort of singular story of this awful thing that happened to this man. it's not as if, like, police brutality is some new phenomenon. Right? This is something that there's all these, you know, we've this we've all seen the statistics. You know, this was, you know, before there was George Floyd, there was Rodney King. Right. So this there's a whole history of, of these, of this being true, but it was this singular story about George Floyd, this singular video that really mobilized people. So for me, it's always a balance of like, yes, we need to respect and direct those supports towards the people who are most directly impacted. But also it's stories or what people, right, that are what we can latch on to. They're they're what drive, um, you know, broader action. So I definitely think it's always important to to be thinking about both sides of think to and we talked about this with your podcast, that it also can be a jumping off point for people who don't know how to start certain conversations, that these podcasts can be a way for us to to have hard conversations with people that we might not ever have if we didn't have the podcast as a vehicle to start exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's so, so often I feel like I talked to people who are like I said, you know, I'm listening to this through I'm listening through your podcast with my dad or my mom or my sister. And yeah, it does organically create conversations that are much harder to have and kind of awkward or uncomfortable, especially if you're not if you haven't really flex that muscle of having hard conversations. And that's the great thing about, you know, maybe you can consume these stories together, you can have these conversations, and then it does become easier down the line to bring up a tricky topic, because you have a framework and you also kind of know, like if we disagree, like the relationship is okay, you know, we have experience navigating selfishly, we want to know how you choose the cases that you showcase on true or crime, because each one is so unique and so different. So how do you go about picking well, um, I'm glad that, you know, it's felt sort of diverse to you. I think, um, for me, from the very beginning, I always wanted true, true or crime to be a true crime podcast, meaning, like, you know, I didn't want it to be the social justice podcast. I didn't want it to be, um, the History Podcast or I the true crime podcast with that black host. Like, I wanted it to be a true crime podcast. And so that meant telling all different types of true crime stories, ones that uh, covered a lot, ones that aren't ones that kind of are traditionally not seen as true crime. So I have kind of several categories. I sort of think of, um, that most of our episodes fit into one would be like infamous cases. So these are stories that people probably already know, right? Like in in season one, we did Jonestown. You know, a lot of people have heard of that story or feel very familiar with it, or at least they've heard the line like, don't drink the Kool-Aid, Um, but most people don't know that the majority of the folks who died in Jonestown were black folks, and particularly black women, that Jim Jones was this, um, person who really had was sort of fighting for racial and class equity, or at least that's how he portrayed himself. Right. And that People's Temple, the group associated with Jonestown, um, was, you know, to the people in it, they felt like it was a civil rights organization or, you know, Black Power organization, you know, like all at different times. so, you know, that's one type of story I like to tell. But then also I like to do stories that are kind of typically considered historical, like they normally get the, the history treatment. So um, and season in this newest season, we put an episode on the untold story of the Martin Luther King assassination. And that was interesting because like in the creation of that episode, I asked a lot of people in my life or, you know, just people I would meet, like, what do you know about this case? Like, what do you know about Martin Luther King's assassination? And, um, mostly people were like, I honestly realized, I don't know very much. Or maybe they kind of know. Oh, yeah. Like he was killed on a balcony, um, you know, by some assassin who went to prison or something. And some of that's true. Like he was killed at the Lorraine Motel in Memphis, Tennessee, by an, uh, you know, a single bullet. Um, the man who ultimately pled guilty and would take responsibility for that was named James Earl Ray. Um, and he was sentenced to 99 years in prison. But turns out, you know, the King family actually always believed that. you know, James Earl Ray was set up, that there was this broader conspiracy to kill King. And in fact, they believed that the US government was a part of it. That the FBI, in particular, might have had a hand in his death. And in 1999, they sued the US government and several other entities, entities saying alleging that exact thing. And they won that trial. And that's crazy because, like, nobody knows that that was 1999. That wasn't a long ago, you know. Um, and know, these stories that I think typically we just kind of think of them as something that we would read in our history books, you know, like history buffs would be into it. I was like, what would it look like if we gave those stories the true crime treatment, you know, and a new audience to kind of engage with them. In season one, we also did the Tulsa Race Massacre. So kind of a similar thing there. then, you know, I like to do, like I said before, true crime stories that are a little bit more, or familiar to people. We did Lauren McCluskey, which is an episode that you guys have talked about on your podcast. you know, this is a case that I've heard covered on a few different other, um, shows, Uh, like other true crime shows. But what I what really stood out to me about Lawrence case was kind of feel like all the systems in our society are set up to protect somebody like Lauren. You know, this beautiful, um, white woman, young, you know, living in Utah. And she was still failed by these systems, right? She was still killed by an ex-boyfriend, despite repeated appeals to police and housing authorities. And just like the university that she went to for help, nobody helped her. Um, and he kind of just leaves you wondering, like, if somebody like Lauren isn't safe, you represents so many other young women just like her. And young women who, you know, maybe don't look like her, whose stories never get told. Um, and then the last kind of story I like to try to do our stories, which kind the lines of culpability. You kind of wonder, well, who is a victim and who perpetrator? And I think that's the whole point of true crime, right, is to to tell stories a little bit more like what crime actually looks like in our society. Um, so one of the cases that we did this season, which you guys also talked about on your podcast, was, um, Alice Sebold and Anthony Broadwater. Alice Sebold being the author of The Lovely was brutally attacked, she was in college, and she wrote this first book before she wrote The Lovely Bones called lucky all attack. And then the subsequent trial where her rapist was convicted. And that man was Anthony Broadwater. Turned out, though, that Anthony Broadwater was wrongfully convicted, that she had accidentally misidentified him. A super common phenomenon, especially when you're trying to identify somebody cross racially, which is what was happening in this case. And so it's a story where, you know, Anthony spent 16.5 years in prison for this crime he didn't commit. It impacted the whole rest of his life as well. Even once he he had gotten out. And Alice, you know, her life was so, um, you know, impacted by what had happened to her. And then she had built this whole career sort of speaking out on these issues of sexual assault. Um, before me too, like when it was, like, not okay to talk about that. Those things, she went on Oprah and wrote these op eds and, um, really was a voice for, for women at the time and in the future. And yet, who is the victim? Who is who is the perpetrator? Right. It's it's unclear and it's messy. And I think that's what crime usually looks like when we kind of look a little deeper. So all types of stories, I think that anybody who comes to check out the show will probably find something that would interest them for all types of emotional reactions. Emily and I, after we finished Lauren McCluskey, were irate, like just completely upset on that side. And then when we finished Anthony Broadwater, I was on a walk. I was sobbing, she was like, I cried numerous times. So if that's our reaction as wondering, as you're researching and you are recording and you're working through this, how how are you able to kind of give yourself a breather and a break and, um, just kind of take care of yourself while you're doing this I mean, for me, I feel like obviously we're also like, just living in a time where there's just so much information coming at us at once. Um, and that can be really overwhelming and anxiety producing. And so I always try to, like, think about things from the perspective of, like, what is my lane? Right. Like, how can I stay in my lane? What is the work that I'm so, know, more than trying to like, protect myself, I guess, or like help myself these stories. It's almost like telling these stories is the way that I'm dealing with all the other inputs I'm getting, if that makes sense. Where it's like, this is something tangible that I can you know, gain visibility for these stories, start these kind of critical conversations, um, talk about these like, sticky themes that show up in our lives, um, race and gender and sexuality and policy and all of that. is a way I can, a part of a solution. Um, and so I don't necessarily find that I have to know, do much more than that to kind of stay in a good headspace because this is kind of don't know resolves the rest for me. Um, and I feel also feel like, you know, you kind of have to tap into some of that, emotional stuff in order to tell the story. Well, I think one of the big things I wanted to do with telling a true crime story was kind of weird. Like, okay, I don't know if you've seen the trend on TikTok, this is old, but I think it's maybe from 2020 or something. But like where? Like somebody's watching TV and then in the background, it's like her arms were cut off, her legs were cut off. I don't know if you okay. Yeah. And it's just like about how women love to binge true crime and like, like, you know, someone will be like, that's crazy that you're, like, listening to that and just kind of, like, mindlessly consuming it. And, you know, that's relatable. But I also felt like there's something a little bit weird about that, right? That we can just kind of consume these things so detached from the real impacts of what what is being said. And so I always felt like, you know, if I was going to tell a true crime story, I want the listener to really be bought, brought on a real emotional journey, you know, for them to feel the effects of some of the things that, you know, I'm saying that some of the realities that I'm sharing. And so in order to do that for the listener, I feel like I kind of have to bring myself there too. And that's kind of part of part of the process a little bit. and, you know, so I don't know, it's a balance. And this is why we put out a certain number of episodes in a season or a Um, but it's definitely for me, it's more fulfilling than two more quick questions. You recently did a live event in your you have plans to do any more live events? Will you be traveling and doing any I mean, I would love to do more. I don't have like an immediate plan for another one, there's more of that in the future. It was really cool to actually get to meet people and like, engage with folks who had listened to the show or who are maybe new to the show and kind of interested in checking it Um, you know, like dream scenario. I'd love to do tours and like, go to other cities and, um, you know, do more of like because this was more of like a launch party. And we did a little bit of a reading and more of a conversation. I would love to do, like an actual live show or something in the future where we can, like, really highlight a couple stories at the actual event, make it a little bit more interactive. So definitely more things in the works of the future, but no immediate I know you would have at least two audience members there. We would come, so that would be fascinating. Also, I have a list of, um, if you're going to do True or Crime Season three, I already have a list of cases I would like you to talk about. Oh, please let me know. And lastly, I is just this thing. And until you're in it, you don't really understand all the moving pieces and what it looks like. So is there anything about being a podcast host, doing the research that you want people to know that you think they don't I mean, I think that, you know, it's kind of interesting. Podcasts are free for the most part. You know, you're only paying for early access or to like or to, to to have no so that's pretty cool, right? I think that there are very few forms of media that are like truly, you uh, you can just consume them and anyone, they're accessible to anybody, anyone. And I think another cool thing about podcasts, too, is just that they're like, they're so, um, versatile. Like, you can listen to them while you're driving or showering or doing whatever. Um, so they don't necessarily have to interfere with you. Kind of like the busyness of our lives. Um, but it takes so much to put them together. I think especially a show like True or Crime, which is scripted. Um, I always say, like, each season is like I wrote a book, you know, I like it's a lot of a lot of pages. It's a lot of words. And it's especially because it's, um, you know, highly researched and, um, it's like writing like a 20 page, like, research paper, but like, it has to sound like creative nonfiction. So it has to sound pretty in, like, a week. That's, like, hard to do. It takes a lot of resources. So I think it's such a cool thing that podcasts are free. But of course it costs a lot to make them. And it's it's a lot of time. So I always want to like remind people like, if you have shows that you love like review them, share them like be loud about how much you like them, because it really does make a difference to like for funding and, you know, for for networks to be interested in renewing shows, it's just has that Netflix show that they were obsessed with. And then like you're like, oh, I'm so ready for the next season and it's canceled. It's done. You know? And it's like with podcasts, it's so great because there are other ways we can engage beyond just listening, although that's like a primary But you know, those reviews, sharing all of that stuff, it really, really definitely does. We filmed a live podcast at our retreat and basically said, like, there are also just behind the scenes things you don't know that cost money, like editing software, microphones, just all the stuff that goes into basically a passion project that you kind of out in the big picture. And enough people are excited to get on board and support you in some way to keep doing the work. Yes, exactly, Uh, we love talking with you. True or crime is just a gift. Also, if you're new and you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to all I binged season one talk about bingeing. And I know Emily, who we listen to the whole thing. And I have Alan Berg teed up to listen to Um, yeah. Thank you so much. you. So do have such a great variety. I will say that we have plans to record about a book that we recently read, a thriller relates to one of your stories in season one. So we're going to talk about that story too. And you know, of course, refer them to listen to your episode because it's so thorough and so well done. But everything I read, I'm like, oh, Cilicia has covered this topic and we're going to have to just keep relating it. Yeah, well, and it's funny too, because it's more like I feel like it's more like the same things just keep happening over and over again in society. Right? It's like the same themes. This is how I always felt like being a debate coach. And doing debate is like we'd have all these different topics, and yet we were talking about the same things that felt like over and over again. Um, and so, yeah, I really appreciate that you guys having me on and listening to the show. It really means a Thank you. And and not to go too dark all of a sudden at the last second. know, I'm a social psychology professor. And so I teach one of the courses I teach, I teach psych and lost related stuff, but then is social psych, and that's looking at the social we are so bad about repeating history, even though for the last, you know, 13 years, I've been telling my students, this is watch what's coming. This is what's happening. We're on this slippery slope. We have to be responsible to recognize and scale back on those things. So even a bigger and we're just, you know, gently floating right down history um, right now, like, with politics and I'm unaware and acting like it has never happened before. And it's so great we're making this lovely our country. But so it happens on such a, like a macro scale and a micro scale. So just I appreciate you to our Yeah, definitely. I think I always feel like the, the feeling of like once you see it you can't unsee it. And I feel like that's part of the reason why I like to do this in a true crime storytelling format is it's like if that's a format that people are interested in and it's accessible to folks, then it's like, you know, then you can see it through that lens and then trust you will start seeing it you so much, you. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for listening. For more content, find us on Patreon at the Creepy Book Club. Happy reading!